Collections: Teaching Paradox, Imperator, Part IIIa: De Re Publica

This is the first half of the third part of our three-part (I, IIa, IIb, IIIa, IIIb) look at Paradox Interactive’s ancient grand strategy game Imperator: Rome, running from the late fourth through the first century BCE, a period that, relevant for today’s discussion, covers the Middle and Late Roman Republic, including the collapse of the Roman Republic during the first century. Previously, we’ve looked at how Imperator looks at the question of Roman military expansion and rising urbanism. This week, we’re going to start looking at the last of the three core pillars of Imperator‘s design: its considerable interest in the internal politics and stability of ancient states.

Imperator is remarkably interested in simulating the internal politics of ancient states (and non-state polities), precisely because those politics cut to that last of the three major lenses through which the public understands this period: the fall of the Roman Republic and its replacement with the monarchy of the early Roman Empire. However, because Paradox’s design ethos includes a commitment to making as many polities on the map playable as possible, Imperator cannot simply have a bunch of bespoke mechanics just for Rome, but rather is forced to create a common set of political systems which apply equally to all of the states in question, so that not only can the Roman Republic collapse (as it did), but so too can the Seleucid Empire (as it did, torn apart by succession disputes) and any other state. That, of course, matches the tremendous political variety in this period, the first in which the broader Mediterranean was knit together economically, politically and culturally to a substantial degree.

Indeed, the ambition of this vision is remarkable and may have been too much for this, or any game, to really handle effectively. While Europa Universalis IV covers a broader range of polities, it largely abstracts away much of their internal politics, such that ‘feudal’ monarchies, republics, theocracies, early administrative states and vast sweeping empires all function broadly similarly. Victoria III simply opts not to simulate non-state polities, hardly an option for the ancient world where such polities could be major players in war and politics, while Crusader Kings III takes advantage of the fact that European, Middle Eastern and South-Asian personalistic polities in its period ended up being broadly recognizable to each other, based on (more or less) similar principles and structures to flatten the distinctions into a single system with relatively limited variations.1

To keep a handle on this scope, we, however are going to stay fairly focused on how the game treats Rome and Rome’s political system (republics), though I will glance over from time to time to look at the other forms of government as well as other non-Roman republics (especially Carthage). This examination of politics is going to come in two parts: this week we’re going to do some foundation laying discussing the basic components of Imperator’s political vision and then try to match that against how the Roman Republic functioned through the bulk of this period (prior to the collapse), then next week we’ll look at how the game handles stability and collapse and the degree to which it matches up to how we understand the collapse of the Roman Republic to have been caused.

And to lead in with some of the conclusion, what we’re going to see this week is that Imperator is rather more successful with tribal and monarchic governments than with republics, in particular because the extremely elite-centric design of its political systems cannot incorporate the democratic elements of the mixed constitutions of states like Rome and Carthage. That said, the Roman Republic is such a complicated creature that fully simulating it in this context might never have been feasible from a gameplay perspective.

Another example of the splash-art being on-point for the game’s understanding of the past that the theme of politics is represented here with a debate in the Senate, rather than a public political address (a contio), which were also very important to the function of Roman politics.

But first, like any good Roman nobilis canvassing for office, I rely on generating word-of-mouth buzz for this project, so if you like what you are reading, please share it. If you really like what you are reading, you can vote for me as consul support me, my academic research (on the Roman Republic!) and this project on Patreon! If you want updates whenever a new post appears, you can click below for email updates or follow me on twitter (@BretDevereaux) for updates as to new posts as well as my occasional ancient history, foreign policy or military history musings, assuming there is still a Twitter by the time this post goes live. I am also on Bluesky (@bretdevereaux.bsky.social) and (less frequently) Mastodon (@bretdevereaux@historians.social).

Kings and Chiefs

We should start with the mechanics that all three major government types (tribal, monarchic and republican) share.

Regardless of type, every polity has the same basic building blocks: there is a ‘leader’ (chieftain, king, suffete, consul, etc), over whom the player has greater control (being able to pick their personal schemes, for instance), and as such the game essentially has the player playing ‘as’ that character (which works rather better for kings and chieftains than the rotating cast of consuls or suffetes in republics). The player is also responsible for staffing the government, with each polity having eight country-wide ‘offices’ along with selecting one governor for every region you control beyond your capital region (which is governed by the leader). The key challenge here, which we’ll come back to, is in balancing the need to select governors and officials (and generals and admirals) between their skills at the job and their political expediency in terms of keeping elite families happy.

While the country leader is selected through a system the player has limited control over (succession or election), all of these other offices are appointed by the player and their holders can be dismissed at will unless something has gone quite wrong (either the holder’s loyalty is below 33 or country stability below 20). The player can pick any character in the country for these roles, however most characters will belong to one of several of those key families.

The list of offices and their holders for a playthrough (not very far along) of the Roman Republic. Note the colored marks in the upper-right corner of each character’s portrait. That indicates what elite family they’re in (some characters not in a major family, will have no mark), while the icon on the lower left (scrolls, wreaths, etc.) tells you what political faction they are in. From a UI-standpoint, information placed this prominently whenever you see a character is something the developers are telling you is important about them, and indeed it is.

And here to understand how these pieces come together, we need to discuss character loyalty. We’re going to come back to this more when we discuss the Fall of the Republic next week, but right now a short explanation will suffice: each character has a score that indicates how politically important they are (‘power base’) and how loyal they are (‘loyalty’ from 0 to 100) to the state. If too many characters with too much power base (the ‘civil war threshold,’ a shifting red line of disloyalty) become disloyal (loyalty below 33), it triggers a countdown to civil war, which for this post we can just treat as something of a failure state (we’ll get into it more in the next post). Most players will strive to avoid it.

While each character has their own individual loyalty score, impacted by their personal relationship with the ruler, their personality, the offices they hold and their power base and so on, most of these characters are also grouped into a few key families (the number varies with country size). The head of each of these families gets substantial bonuses to power base, making it more important to keep them loyal. Each of these major families also expects to hold a certain number of offices: for every office below that number they are missing they become scorned, losing 5 loyalty; this is a stacking penalty (so a family missing two offices is -10), and a flat -5 penalty across an entire family is substantial, so the player is strongly encouraged to balance offices between the major families to keep them happy.

The game also graphically represents each family under the character’s menu, showing their members, along with (left size) their powerbase, number of offices and family prestige. This sort of presentation encourages the player to think of these families broadly as ‘teams’ in the political arena, although the faction-system fortunately complicates this image, as faction affiliation is calculated separately from family affiliation.

Returning, to a moment, to characters, it is important to note what they generally do not do: they don’t make policy. Unlike vassals in CKIII, who can build up holdings, raise armies, plot, scheme and generally do lots of policy stuff, office holders in Imperator generally exist to do two things: they provide a mechanical bonus based on their stats and at the same time getting the job makes them slightly more loyal (and their families, if it makes sure they’re not scorned). But making a pro-democracy character head of the treasury doesn’t result in, say, programs for the poor. or the construction of granaries to facilitate grain distributions. Governors are the exception, as they do set a policy (a choice of one of several flat sets of bonuses and penalties) in their provinces, though if governor personality influences those choices, the influence is minor enough to be ignored – what matters is governor skill (most notably, finesse) which influences output and happiness.

Instead, this is a system governed by what YouTuber Rosencreutz describes as ‘player autocracy,’ a design philosophy that aims to empower the player by giving them as much control over the polity they are playing as possible – generally far more control than any historical leader would have. Because players in strategy games are generally not constrained by political process or procedure (in the interests of this ‘player autocracy’) it is generally in the constraints and responses to player action that a game sets out its vision of how polities function.

These constraints are generally expressed by some key ‘currencies’ for states, one that is common across all of them (‘tyranny’) and then a specific currency for each government type. We’ve already discussed aggressive expansion and stability; somewhat ironically stability has little political influence on a country in Imperator – it makes provincial revolts more likely, but not civil wars (which we’ll get into next week). More important for our purposes is tyrannynot the absolutely excellent game by Obsidian you all slept on and should now go play – tyranny in Imperator is a currency with both positive and negative effects. On the one hand, high tyranny causes aggressive expansion to decay faster (for reasons I’ve never quite understood), but more importantly for us, tyranny carries both faction-wide loyalty penalties for characters and lowers the civil war threshold, meaning that by both making more characters disloyal and reducing the number of disloyal characters necessary for a civil war, pushes a country quite hard in that direction if it is high. However, tyranny drops off relatively quickly and most government types (except republics!) don’t have huge sources of it, making it a lot safer to take a little tyranny for an action in Imperator than, say, ‘tyranny’ (a global opinion malus) in CKIII.

In monarchies, the other constraint is legitimacy (scaling from negative to positive 100), which I think functions fairly well to model kingship as a form of leadership. High legitimacy makes it easier to have untroubled successions (it boosts primary heir attraction), but low legitimacy damages the loyalty of all characters even more than equivalent amounts of tyranny. High ruler popularity improves legitimacy (ironically, as we’ll see, making this a more important statistic to care about in hereditary monarchy than in an elective republic, which doesn’t seem quite right!), as does high stability, while war exhaustion and corruption lower legitimacy. A player in need of legitimacy can trade political influence and a little bit of tyranny for a ticking bonus to legitimacy (trading 0.02 tyranny for 0.05 legitimacy, so the ratio is quite favorable), which can be stacked multiple times if a rapid boost of legitimacy is necessary.

The equivalent ‘currency’ for non-state ‘tribal’ governments is centralization, but the actual constraint for those governments is the power of their ‘clan chiefs,’ (from whom the leader is always selected) who are the leaders of the major families. Some actions, including law changes for tribal governments require all current clan chiefs to be loyal in order to perform and clan chiefs are always the commander of their retinues (which form much of the polity’s army) meaning that disloyal clan chief’s troops will be uncontrollable in war.

The government screen for a tribal country, in this case the Arevaci, the largest of the Celtiberian peoples. The three figures represented in the bottom right are the three clan chiefs (with the gold coin noting the one who is currently the leader). I admit, I haven’t played much with tribal polities in the current version of Imperator (I had a run as the Belgae in the release build ages ago, but the rules have almost entirely changed since then).

That system actually, I think, within the confines of the system works reasonably well at modeling non-state polities in this period. It might be a bit more accurate if clan chiefs (or their youths) could take the polity to war without the player’s permission, but I suspect that would be an intolerable breach in player autocracy. The player that loses the game because the young men of his tribe scuttled his diplomacy with Rome by raiding Roman territory would be quite upset at having their strategy overridden by random chance, no matter how historically accurate that sort of thing would be (this exact thing very nearly happened to the Cenomani in 197 (Livy 32.30.6) and the town of Lutia in 134, App. Hisp. 94).2

Overall, I think both of these sets of mechanics work to express some historical ideas. Power in monarchic governments in Imperator is focused into the person of the king, but constrained by the need to act kingly in order to retain legitimacy, which is in turn the primary tool for retaining the loyalty of the subordinates the king relies on to collect his taxes and lead his armies. By contrast, tribal governments are essentially coalition of aristocrats, each commanding their own network of subordinates, but only loosely controlled by any kind of central authority.

But I want to turn to what I think is substantially the most complex government type in Imperator and the one the game clearly focuses on: Republics, especially the Roman and Carthaginian Republics.

Imperator‘s Republics

Republics are far more mechanically complex than either tribal or monarchic governments and one assumes, given that this is a game – as the title, Imperator: Rome declares – about the Middle and Late Roman Republic, that republican forms of government also got the most development time. Now, I should note that from a gameplay perspective, this complex system can often end up as little more than a single constraining resource (‘senate approval’) that works a lot like legitimacy, simply with more complex knobs and levers to manipulate. Part of this is that elections are both frequent (every 5 years normally) and difficult for the player to directly influence and so tend to just happen – the player is more ‘rolling with’ whatever results they get (akin to how one handles ruler changes in EUIV – you can’t pick your ruler, so you adapt your strategy to what the Random Number Generator gives you) than trying to shape those results (cf. CKIII‘s inheritance system).

Nevertheless, the mechanical systems that produce those results say quite a bit about how Imperator understands ancient republics in general and the Roman Republic in particular (among other things, all of the artwork for republics is Roman inspired; it is kind of funny playing as Carthage, when your senate is pictured all wearing togas).

The Carthaginian Adirim – it is hard not to notice that all of the artwork here, apart from the character portraits themselves, is distinctly Roman-themed.
Looking at the Adirim on the bottom half of the screen, you can see the factional makeup represented on the outer right and left edges (grapes for oligarchs, bowls for democrats and hourglasses (?) for traditionalists). The faction leads are in the center, with their approval (thumbs up) and exact seat number (the bench signal) above them, along with their agenda, should they come to power. This Adirim is, as you can tell from those numbers, quite upset with me.

Each Republic has a Senate. These may go by different culturally determined names, but they all function the same, though I do want to note that having the Athenian ekklesia and other Greek states’ (like Argos) gerousia be different names for the same thing speaks to some of blurring of important distinctions happening here. Readers of our How to Polis series will remember that most poleis had both an assembly (ekklesia) and a council (gerousia, boule) and that these were quite distinct!3 Nevertheless, in Imperator all republics are ‘unicameral,’ with just one key political organ, represented by that ‘senate.’

Each senate is split into three factions, which for most countries are oligarchs, traditionalists and democrats, but for Rome are optimates, boni and populares; this is mostly just a culture-flavor name switch, but there are some minor mechanical differences (e.g. oligarchs actually like tyranny, but optimates do not) and the Roman factions provide different bonuses. Every character (that is, named political elite) in a country is ideologically committed to a faction (this can change, but doesn’t do so frequently) and the faction’s power (represented by the senate seats it commands) is a product of the total ‘senate influence’ of all of the characters supporting that faction, which in turn largely a product of their ‘power base.’ The player can thus influence which senate faction is ascendant in the long-term through things like office selection, as access to offices will grow the power base of those characters, thus (very slowly) increasingly the influence of their senate factions.

In turn, the ruler and co-ruler (so consuls, suffetes, etc.) are elected by the Senate (!) based on the support of senate seats, with the highest prominence member of each faction (the faction leader) getting a substantial boost from that faction. Characters get a small boost for their ‘popularity’ statistic (representing their mass appeal) and their statesmanship statistic (representing their actual experience governing) as well as for family prestige, but since faction leaders get a whopping 50% bonus (compared to fractions of a percent per-point for the others) to votes from their faction (a family member of the faction leader gets a 10% bonus) and anyone not in a given faction gets a 40% malus to votes from that faction, the ‘major players’ here tend to be the faction leaders of the largest factions in the Senate.

Each time a new leader is elected, they come with an objective or agenda they want done, though for the most part the penalties for doing or not doing these agendas are usually slight enough that most players will only complete them if they fit with their already active strategy.

More critically for the player is senate approval, the variable which replaces ‘legitimacy’ both mechanically and in the user-interface. Each faction has a certain ‘approval’ score, which is then multiplied by the percentage of seats they hold; these are then added together to create a single senate approval rating, effectively a seat-weighted average of faction approval. Faction approval reduces character loyalty if below 50 and raises it if above 50, so this is an important mechanic to track, however it is senate approval that represents the major constraint on player activity in republics.

If senate approval is above 51, it imposes no constraints on the player’s actions. However, if senate approval falls below 51, any action that requires senate approval incurs a tyranny cost of 0.67 per every point below 50 the country is. Quite a wide range of player actions fit under this rubric, including nearly all foreign policy actions (both big choices like making alliances or declaring war, but also small choices like starting to improve another country’s opinion or sending an insult), as well as all law changes and some character interactions (imprisoning, holding triumphs, etc). If senate approval drops below 30, these actions will simply be blocked entirely. The fact that this sort of approval covers so many foreign policy actions makes sense for the Roman Republic, where the senate dominated foreign affairs for much of this period.

The significance of this mechanic is that, perhaps somewhat ironically, republics can accrue tyranny much faster and in much larger amounts than monarchies or tribal governments, if they aren’t careful. Tyranny, in turn, of course, lowers character loyalty (which low faction approval is also doing), but also lowers the faction approval of ‘democrats’ (but not populares) factions, leading to a trap where if the democrats-faction is both strong and unhappy, the player can trap themselves in a tyranny doom-loop and are essentially forced to do nothing until the whole system cools off.4

One oddity of the way this system is implemented is that it isn’t quite clear who the senate is or is not approving. Faction approval (and thus senate approval) doesn’t reset on a new consular election, when the ruler of the country changes – instead it gradually drifts, with a slow-moving bonus if the current country leader is also in the relevant faction. As a result, this isn’t the senate’s approval of its actual leaders or government but the senate’s approval of the player, a forth-wall breaking mechanics that is a product of the fact that Imperator can never quite decide if you are playing as the ruler (as in CKIII) or the state (as in EUIV) or the nebulous ‘spirit of the country’ (as in Victoria III).

Nevertheless, senate approval as a mechanic does a decent job of communicating something true about the Roman Republic, which is that elite opinion substantially constrained decision-makers for most of this period. It was, as we’ve discussed, foolish for almost any Roman political figure to ignore the collective will of the senate.

One thing I have not gotten into here are the different variants of republics (and indeed, monarchies also have different variants) because, to be frank, I don’t think they matter very much. Different sorts of republics (aristocratic, oligarchic, democratic, and so on) all use the same mechanics. They merely differ in the government bonuses they receive and relatively minor mechanical tweaks like alterations to the election age or having (or not having) co-rulers. The Athenian Democracy (or ‘Athenian Republic’ as its called in game) does not function meaningfully differently than an oligarchic republic or the Roman (aristocratic) Republic.

Lost on the Path of Honors

Now that we have all of the mechanics out of the way, we can talk about the vision of Roman politics (and the politics of other ancient republics more broadly) they imply.

Fundamentally this is a vision of politics driven functionally entirely by a small group of elites, most of whom hail from a tiny handful of families. Indeed, the in-game text description of the ‘aristocratic republic’ government form (which both Rome and Carthage have) reads, “Whilst outwardly democratic, an Aristocratic Republic limits leadership to those who enjoy high status.” While there is a strong element of player autocracy here, in that the player is free to select whatever office holders and governors they like from among the elite, the elements that are removed from player autocracy – leader elections and senate approval – are entirely expressions of elite will. Leaders are elected by the senate in Imperator and it is only senate approval which allows or blocks actions, both foreign or domestic.

And while we’ll get to the question of stability and collapse next week, it’s also worth noting that the question of loyalty and civil war is also a question of the individual loyalty of elites, which is in turn heavily dependent on the loyalty of their families and political factions. Mob violence in Rome around demagogic politicians forming street-gangs – a real part of the chaos of the 50s BC in Rome – aren’t a mechanical factor in the game (though some events allude to them). In short, this is a system driven by elites, who in turn function within two cross-cutting factional systems, one political and one familial and who aim to maximize power for their faction and family.

There are, I think, three weaknesses to this system, one minor and two major. The minor weakness is that this system still encourages the player to see political actors as members of larger factional systems, rather than individual free-agents, but in ancient political systems, the latter was far more often true. Roman gentes did not, in fact, generally move together politically in this period (they may have done earlier in the Republic) and the populares and optimates distinction was more about tactics than fixed political parties.5 That said, Imperator, in its current form, allows more political free-agenting than any other simulation of the Roman Republic I’ve seen – contrast both Rome-themed Total War games, where individuals are always and entirely loyal servants of their families – so this may actually be a minor merit, so much as a weakness.

The first major weakness is the absence of the cursus honorum.

The cursus honorum, literally the ‘path of honors’ was the Roman term for a political career, but it also signified a clear traditional progression of offices an elite Roman was expected to run for. All of these offices, contrary to Imperator‘s setup, were elected and the expectation was that they were held in sequence (with breaks in between), such that holding office on the previous steps is what qualified one to run for more senior offices. There was no written rule that one could not skip steps (until Sulla adds one), but few Romans did so: you held each office in turn (each office lasted for a year), which provided the necessary experience and political clout to hold the next one.

A diagram of the elected offices of the cursus honorum. Note that there were additional appointed military tribunes.

As a result, elite Romans were not simply available for whatever job might be necessary, but engaged in a process of climbing a ladder of offices with the consulship at the top. As you may note, the ladder is an elimination contest, with fewer steps as one goes higher, eliminating less electorally successful candidates until only two consuls each year remained. The senate was not directly elected, but rather consisted of anyone who had at least reached the quaestorship; a bit of demographics and life expectancy meant the senate was generally around 300 seats, but it may not have been a fixed number. Speaking order in deliberations in the senate was based on the highest office someone had reached (and seniority after that) meaning that the prestige of how high one had climbed on this ladder followed them even when they were out of office.

(I should note, the Carthaginian Republic lacked any comparable system. Carthaginian generals were directly elected and indeed it was possible for election to be one’s ‘first job,’ as it were, as was the case with Hannibal Barca, who was elected to follow his father (Hamilcar) and brother-in-law (Hasdrubal the Fair) as the general in Spain at the ripe age of 26. Such a meteoric ascent was, in theory, impossible in the Roman system, where by custom no one could be elected to the consulship before the age of 42 (though Scipio Aemilianus does it at age 38, the precocious fellow))

This competition for office, waged in campaigns for election by the people (see below) was the central rhythm of Roman politics and is entirely absent in Imperator, where a talented young Roman may be instantly elevated to a position as a provincial governor (generally a job for a praetor or former praetor) or even the censorship (an elected position almost always held by senior former-consuls)! Moreover, in Imperator, once appointed men hold these offices for long periods, but under the Republic, offices were all held for just one year (except for the censorship, which was an 18 month term every 5 years), meaning that rather than a fixed cast of the most talented (or politically expedience) candidates, Rome was led by an annually rotating cast of aristocrats, with the consequence that the average capability of Roman leaders often mattered more over time than the genius of individuals.6

Now, I understand why Paradox didn’t opt to implement the cursus honorum in Imperator. For one, it would be a single-country (no other ancient state quite does this) bespoke system that would be very complex and hard to balance. But having all of your leaders shift out annually in an uncontrollable series of elections would also be profoundly disempowering for a player who would thus be at the mercy of whatever fellows the Roman senatorial elite could cough up for key posts that year. Of course, that is exactly how the Roman Republic actually functioned, but it would hardly make for a great play experience.

At the same time, controlling such a system would more or less demand the player to keep careful track of hundreds of Roman aristocrats as they progressed through the system, which would hopelessly bog down gameplay. I have some thoughts for how this might be managed (below), but I find I understand why implementing this key element of the Roman Republic was not attempted.

The P in SPQR

Something else, however, is missing in this model of the Roman Republic, some part of the Senatus Populusque Romanus that isn’t here.

The People. The entire populus.

This is a frequent problem in modeling the Roman Republic – indeed, Total War: Rome II‘s model is, if anything, much, much worse in this regard – and I can’t help but feeling like, to some degree, historians and history teachers may be responsible. We know, when we teach the Roman Republic in the context of a modern liberal democracy that the instinct of students is going to be to see the common elements between their society and Roman society and assume that the Roman Republic is democratic in nature. But that would be a serious mistake and a substantial overstatement of the power The People had in the Republic. The Republic is, after all, a balancing of the interests of the People and the elite (in the form of the Senate), whereas in a democracy, the People are fundamentally sovereign.

Needing to hedge against that mistake leads us to emphasize the anti-democratic elements of the unwritten Roman constitution – the voting bodies slanted by wealth, the (somewhat large) handful of elite families who dominated politics and the impact of patronage – in order to make the point that this is not a modern, liberal democracy. But it also isn’t an oligarchy or pure aristocracy! On this point, Polybius leaves us in little doubt (Polyb. 6.11-14): the Republic has oligarchic elements in its structure, but also a substantial power reserved for the people.

And Imperator almost entirely leaves this element of the Roman Republic out.

We can start with some of the basic inaccuracies in the mechanics. Roman consuls were not elected by the Senate; indeed the Senate could not elect any officials (though it could ask currently serving officials to continue what they were doing with authority delegated to them by the new magistrates). None of Rome’s key officials were appointed either: they were all elected by the people in popular assemblies, with magistrates having imperium elected in the comitia centuriata, those without in the comitia tributa, except for the tribunes of the plebs, elected in the concilium plebis. Nor could the Senate pass laws, or – legally – prevent their passage, though the influence of the senate might often be used to dissuade the people from passing laws.

That said, an elite-centric vision of the Roman Republic isn’t entirely out of step with the scholarship on the Roman Republic, but it is out of step with the scholarship on the Roman Republic for the last roughly 35 years or so. What Imperator presents is a vision in which Rome is controlled by a relatively narrow, hereditary oligarchy, which features few new entrants (your handful of elite families provide most of your politically meaningful characters and they stick around) and in which the people have little to no say. Instead, while Rome may have had voting, this vision assumes that common Romans were both always the clients of powerful Romans (not always true, by the by) and that they followed their patrons politically in lock-step, such that elite Roman gentes could unfailingly deliver large numbers of their clients to win elections on behalf of aristocratic ends. J. North7 termed this the “frozen wastes” version of Roman politics, associated with the older scholarship of figures like Ronald Syme and Matthias Gelzer.

But the “frozen wastes” vision has been thawing for some time and at this point, large chunks of its icy argument have been broken off. Keith Hopkins8 and P.A. Brunt9 started by noting that the makeup of the Roman leadership class was quite a bit more fluid than Syme had imagined: rather than locking down power, elite Roman clans (gentes) tended to drift into and out of relevance over time, replaced either by other parts of the old Roman aristocracy or by new entrants into Rome’s political elite; at the same time, these gentes rarely moved as clear political factions (something Imperator actually does grasp, separating political factions from families, even if that means pulling the popularisoptimates distinction forward almost 200 years). In fact, at Imperator‘s start date (304 BC), a substantial influx of new blood into Rome’s political elite stood within living memory, as the consulship had been opened to (rich) plebians only in 367 and the praetorship to them only in 337. Truly new entrants to this system (novi homines) were rare, but there was a steady trickle of them; Imperator‘s main gentes, however, remain fixed.

But the big ‘break’ in this old vision comes with Fergus Millar’s The Crowd in Rome in the Late Republic (1998). Millar notes the importance the Romans placed on public deliberation through speeches at informal political gatherings (called contiones) and, indeed, on expressions of popular will through voting, when it came to making political decisions. Amassing positive ‘vibes,’ as it were, for your position was important both for getting it passed through an assembly, but also because under the mos maiorum – the traditional, unwritten rules of Roman politics – most Roman elites (senators, magistrates) were not willing to stand in the way of popular legislation, or press unpopular legislation too hard.

Millar’s view has been complicated by subsequent scholarship, with H. Mouristen, Plebs and Politics in the Late Roman Republic (2001) noting that the voting and meeting spaces this takes place in were nowhere near big enough to service a meaningful slice of the Roman citizen body (which was enormous) and so this must have to some degree limited political participation and channeled it towards the well-to-do class who had the time to be present for these things (but the ‘vibes’ of those present might still matter a lot). Meanwhile Robert Morstein-Marx, Mass Oratory and Political Power in the Late Roman Republic (2002) argues that the rituals of Roman civic participation – the contiones especially – were more about getting the people on board with what the elite already planned to do, though in turn, getting the people on board mattered.

Now it is the case that the Roman people rarely bucked the will of the senate, especially on matters relating to foreign policy, but it did happen. In 200 BC, the Senate advocated for a war against Philip V of Macedon and the consul, P. Sulpicius brought the matter to a vote and were blocked (Livy 31.6) and as a result the senate and the consul had to back up, promise substantial compromises (particularly not to draft anyone who had served in the recent Second Punic War (218-201)) in order to get the vote through (Livy 31.8.6). In 195, the senate split over the question of if the Lex Oppia, a sumptuary law restricting the display of wealth by Roman women passed during the Second Punic War to encourage those women to donate their riches to the war effort, should be repeated. Key senators (including Cato the Elder) and the tribunes try to block the legislation, but popular support became too intense to prevent a vote and the repeal passed (Livy 34.8.3), an even made more unusual by the fact that the campaign to get this done was driven by Roman women who could not vote, but who could influence the votes of others through what today we’d call activism. And, of course, the most famous example of this are the political programs of the Gracchi in 133 and 123, passed through robust popular support in the concilium plebis despite the strong opposition of the Senate.

From the British Museum, a Roman denarius (113-112) commissioned by P. Licinius Nerva. The obverse (left) shows Roma, but the reverse is what we’re interested in: it shows a Roman voter in the act of voting (handing his vote to the assistant from where it will be placed in the basket (the cista) for counting.

Not only did the Senate not elect officials in Rome, it rarely weighed in on elections, but in the rare instances that it did, it did not always get its way. P. Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus is elected, so far as we can tell, against the will of the senate, to the consulship twice, first in 147 (App. Pun. 112) and then again in 134 (App. Hisp. 84; Plut. Mor. 201A-B). Gaius Marius ran for his first consulship in 107 on a platform that we might describe as ‘to hell with the Senate’ (Sall. Iug. 84.1), wins, is denied by the senate permission to hold a traditional levy, takes volunteers and goes and wins the war anyway (Sall. Iug. 86.1-2; Plut. Mar. 9.1; this wasn’t the first time this trick was used, Scipio Africanus had done the same trick in 205 to get around senatorial opposition to an Africa campaign, Livy 28.45.9-12).

That these clear rejections of the will of the Senate were relatively rare doesn’t mean that the people only expressed their will in these limited instances. Rather, I would suggest that it is indicative of how relatively flexible the system was and how relatively adroit the Roman elite generally was at accommodating shifts in public opinion for most of this period. James Tan makes an interesting argument10 that it was the necessity of collecting taxes (in the absence of hard coercive methods to do so) to pay the stipendium (army pay) introduced in Roman armies in 407 (Livy 4.59.11) which compelled Roman elites to engage in a degree of negotiation and accommodation with the assidui (Romans with enough property to be liable for conscription and taxes).

In short, of Roman elites wanted to accomplish their aims – which were to ascend to high office, command armies and win glory in war – they had to ‘ride,’ as it were, the ‘vibes’ of the Roman citizenry.

All of which feeds back into Polybius’ statement I noted before. Polybius looks at the Roman Republic and concludes that, “if one fixed one’s eyes on the power of the consuls, the constitution seemed completely monarchical and royal; if on that of the senate it seemed again to be aristocratic; and when one looked at the power of the masses, it seemed clearly to be a democracy” (Polyb. 6.11.12, trans. W.R. Paton). This wasn’t empty language: this was a mixed constitution, a recognized kind of government in Greek thought which in Greek political thinking aimed to treat the aristocracy, the people and the chief magistrates almost as three separate constituencies to be balanced against each other.11

This isn’t the place to get into what we know of the Carthaginian political structure (less than we’d like!) but I should note that Carthage too was understood to be a mixed constitution (Arist. Pol. 2.1273a), though Polybius argues that in fact by the Second Punic War, the democratic element of the Carthaginian constitution had come to dominate (Polyb. 6.51.6-7) which Polybius, being something of a snob, views as a bad thing. Modern scholars, I should note, haven’t always agreed on how seriously to treat this statement, though given the ability of the Barcids to get their commands in Spain confirmed by the people despite hints of elite political opposition, I don’t think we ought to dismiss it either.12 So Rome is hardly alone here as being somewhat conspicuous in missing a clear democratic element.

Imperator at best only weakly gestures towards this role filled by the people, in that characters have a ‘popularity’ statistic, which offers a fairly modest increase to both senate influence (increasing the power of that character’s faction) and the probably of being elected as the leader or co-leader. But this is quite a weak representation, suggesting politicians with relatively fixed, stable followings they could reliably deliver as voters – exactly the ‘frozen wastes’ vision of patronage’s impact of Roman politics that has been largely abandoned by Roman historians.

Simulating the Roman Republic

Assessing the validity of this model leaves me a bit torn. On the one hand, leaving out both the cursus honorum and the popular assemblies essentially strips both the heart and lungs out of the Republic – what is left only superficially resembles the actual historical system. At the same time, those who have read my series on how the Roman Republic functioned – How to Roman Republic – will already recognize that the Roman Republic itself is fiendishly complex with a lot of interlocking components. At any given moment, Rome has roughly thirty major magistrates, who can call four different voting assemblies along with a 300-member senate with no formal powers but tremendous influence.

That is a very hard thing to render into a game system. And I think it is worth noting: as popular video-game representations of the Roman Republic go, this may be one of the stronger ones. It is certainly a lot better than the absolute mess that is the representations of the Republic in both Rome: Total War games, which reduce this complex creature to squabbling dynasties – at least Imperator recognizes that Roman politicians functioned as free agents (although, again, they’ve pulled the political factions of the first century far too far forward chronologically and to a degree misunderstood how they functioned). It also lacks some of Expeditions: Rome‘s baffling misstatements (less pardonable there because that is an RPG rather than a political simulation – there was no need for the errors).

But, to be frank, it also isn’t a very good representation of the Roman Republic, presenting a mixed constitution as a raw oligarchy and missing the way a Roman politician progressed through a political career.

I’ve thought a bit about how I would try to fix this while retaining an enjoyable game experience and I’ve come to a very tentative solution which I think also resolves one of Imperator‘s fussier problems, which is that it can never quite decide if the player is the state or the ruler. Resolve this problem by making the player the people in a Republic (just as the player is clearly the king in monarchies).

At the start of each election cycle (probably not every year, that’d be accurate but too frequent; perhaps every five years), have the system generate your ten quaestors for the year and assign them randomly (quaestors were assigned by lot). Then have the player next, acting as the people voting in the assembly select which of the last rounds quaestors get to advance to the next offices (aediles and tribunes, probably cutting down the number of tribunes to account for plebian tribunes coming from outside of the cursus honorum, a thing we know happened), knocking a few out. Those fellows now fill the country-wide bonuses roles for the next cycle. Then, the player gets the list of last cycle’s aediles and tribunes and selects which ones advance to the praetorship – two praetors run the courts (country-wide bonuses), the others are available as governors. And finally, to cap off each election, you pick the two ‘winners’ for the consulship from last cycle’s praetors.

That process presents the player with some hard strategic questions, in part because these offices are going to demand different skills! Consuls lead armies, but aediles manage festivals and buildings, so the player has to consider keeping good military men (who might make lack-luster tribunes or praetors) in the pile to have solid consuls. At the same time, popularity and positions in elite families should matter as they do in game: slighting the popular scion of a great family repeatedly might well make him disloyal – and this is an elimination contest where there are always many losers and few winners. Perhaps most importantly, the player is largely forced to work with the cast of characters they’ve given themselves in repeated runs through the system, as the characters who succeed here become the key figures in the senate, shaping its politics and approval. At the same time, policy, reforms and law changes ought to be available based only on who is holding the relevant offices at that time, requiring the player to line up the right consul or tribune (to propose the law) with the right senate (to back it) in order to get a chance to bring it to a vote and approve it.

Of course, even as I explain this, you can see the challenge of implementing this sort of a system into a game like Imperator – such a tremendously bespoke system for just one country would be fiendishly hard to balance against the rest and involve a ton of development time. It is the sort of system which I think you might expect to see deployed in a major DLC or expansion in the second or third year of a game’s run. Alas, Imperator did not last long enough to get such substantial updates.

And speaking of things that cannot last, next week we’ll bring this series to a close, looking at the Fall of the Roman Republic.

  1. And are only now, several years into development, preparing to add the complexity of adding an ‘Administrative’ polity-type which is essentially adding the state to their game that is otherwise about the function of non-state polities. That’s a huge addition and I don’t blame them for waiting a few years to do it as part of a major expansion. Alas, Imperator never got any such major expansions.
  2. This is also something of an issue in Crusader Kings: your vassals can start wars, but a border vassal can’t, by beefing with the vassal of another king, drag you into a major war against your will, a thing which was actually a real hazard with vassalage based polities.
  3. Even more attentive readers may have furrowed a brow at Argos being an oligarchic republic with a gerousia at game start, as Argos was a democracy for most of this period. Argos adopted a democracy after the Persian Wars where the main voting body was a haliaia teleia, with two smaller assisting councils, the Bola (a boule) and ‘the Eighty.’ Details via the Inventory of Archaic and Classical Poleis, eds. M.H. Hansen and T.H. Nielsen (2005)., 604-5.
  4. It is somewhat striking that by both removing the oligarch’s bonuses for tyranny and corruption and the democrats penalties for them, Rome’s entirely unique and bespoke faction system is essentially ‘republic on easy mode’ (or at least less complex mode) and one wonders if this was intended to reduce the complexity of managing this system, as a lot of new players will play Rome first.
  5. And I should note that the boni, ‘good men’ was just another term for the optimates (‘the best ones’) and shouldn’t be a distinct political group here.
  6. The Roman Republic, in the event, was very good at churning out solidly workmanlike but not exceptional military commanders, but produced few true great talents (really just Scipio Africanus and Caesar); solidly competent leadership was, however, enough when it was consistent.
  7. In J. North, “Democratic politics in republican Rome,” Past & Present 126 (1990) 3-21
  8. In Conquerors and Slaves (1978)
  9. In Fall of the Roman Republic and Related Essays (1988)
  10. J. Tan, “The Long Shadow of Tributum in the Long Fourth Century” in Making the Middle Republic, eds. S. Bernard, L.M. Mignone and D. Padilla Peralta (2023)
  11. If you are hearing echoes of ‘checks and balances,’ you aren’t entirely wrong (this is part of what the Framers are thinking with) but the Roman Republic isn’t structured quite like that: instead of checking or balancing other elements, each element is understood to have its own customary sphere of activity and to be dominant in that sphere.
  12. On Carthaginian generals, see M.J. Taylor, “Generals and Judges: Command, constitution and the fate of Carthage” Libyan Studies (2023).

58 thoughts on “Collections: Teaching Paradox, Imperator, Part IIIa: De Re Publica

  1. Reading your statements on preforming kingship in this and other posts makes me think that an explanation of how Hellenistic monarchies functioned might be a useful addition to your How To X series. I guess I always treated them as largely similar to later Medieval monarchies, but I’m sure that there were quite a few important differences.

    1. Why is this comment at the top when it’s more recent than the others?

      But to answer your question, yes, they were different. Firstly there was no formal feudalism and no hierarchy of titles. There were big landowners, and there was a loose circle of “friends of the kings” who were given ad hoc military/administrative jobs, but that’s different to inheriting titles. Secondly they didn’t get their authority from Christianity or an external religion – there were ruler cults but that’s a way of gaining prestige not an inherent source of legitimacy. Combining those two leads to the third difference: kingship was a weak institution with shallow ideological roots, and instead the king is more of a generalissimo who rules because he has the biggest army. Fourthly (apart from Macedon proper) the kingdoms were an empire in the sense of a small ethnic elite ruling a much larger local indigenous population. Fifthly, and because of that, cities were the major sub unit of the kingdoms and where economic and political activity were concentrated – not the rural estates we associate with medieval Europe.

      In many ways, this makes the Hellenistic kingdoms more like the early migration era kingdoms (if they’d embraced urbanisation) than the latter feudal medieval kingdoms that get much more attention. Malcom Errington’s A history of the Hellenistic World (Blackwell Ancient History, 2007) is a good introductory read to the period and the kingdoms, which all have their idiosyncrasies.

    2. Out of a habit of thinking about incentive structures in gaming, the part about low senate approval caught my eye – it sounds like low Senate approval just adds a lot of friction to doing *anything,* so they’d feel more like an anchor than a political body with its own desires. My first thought was that it’d make more sense to have them make it harder to do things they don’t like but leave the way open to pander to them – so a low-approval player doesn’t just get “this is a penalty, which sucks and may death-spiral,” but instead gets an increasingly strong incentive to follow the Senate’s agenda (whereas if you build popularity, you have more room to set your own agenda).

      The second thought is interesting, though – from a human nature perspective, “unpopular politicians get opposed even when they’re doing things that actually line up with the agenda of the opposition” certainly isn’t unknown in human history. I mainly associate that with modern party politics, though, and most of what I know of this period is from this cool blog I follow at ‘acoup.blog’; does anyone know of examples from the period Imperator covers that point to whether or not that kind of dynamic might have been present?

  2. Typo hunt

    > programs for the poor. or the construction of granaries
    Should be a comma.

    > speaks to some of blurring of important distinctions happening here
    First ‘of’ seems wrong.

    > which in turn largely a product of their ‘power base.’
    Needs an ‘is’. Quotes around power base not consistent with surrounding text.

    > a forth-wall breaking mechanics that is
    fourth

    > or ‘Athenian Republic’ as its called in game
    it’s

    > repeal passed (Livy 34.8.3), an even made more unusual
    event

    > denied by the senate permission to hold a traditional levy
    Should be capital Senate for consistency with surrounding text.

  3. > as the consulship had been opened to (rich) non-plebians only in 367

    Should this read “non-patricians”?

    1. Also, how did they get to be consuls if they couldn’t be praetors for another generation? I know the cursus honorum wasn’t completely rigid, but it seems really odd to do it in this order.

  4. I am curious as to the cost of implementing complex game play features such as bespoke or customisable internal political systems is?

    And how much revenue it might generate.

    (Work in finance for a software tech firm but not a games company.)

    1. I was thinking about this from the perspective of someone working in software (though not games) as an engineer, and I think there are essentially two types of costs here that matter.

      One is the rather obvious opportunity cost – time spent working on a bespoke system for one country is time not spent on improving the experience for anyone playing another country.

      Perhaps the more important cost, at least if you expect to be adding content to the game in the shape of DLCs for many years, is maintenance. Every time you tweak some of the mechanics affecting all the countries, you have to take all the bespoke systems into account, both when designing and testing them to make sure nothing break. This effort tends to increase exponentially relative to the number of bespoke systems in place. And since removing a bespoke system is rarely an option, adding one means a commitment to supporting it until you stop publishing expansions.

      And as you no doubt already know, saying in advance how much of a payoff anything like this will generate, so it’s not surprising if the game developers are reluctant to make long-term commitments without a clear promise of revenue.

      1. I’m not sure if this would fit under opportunity cost, or be something that’s already assumed for other software developments, but there’s significant cost in playtesting for balance. The effectiveness of the changes needs to be pitched at the right level of ‘challenging when played, but not overwhelming when played against’, which may require a large number of repeated playthroughs as different factions to implement tweaks and test their effectiveness.

  5. This article highlights why I often get fed up with Paradox games for years at a time. There’s a refusal to do high level abstraction; instead the focus is to add as many resources, meters and stuff to model everything to a low level of granularity. But what does this complexity actually achieve? Ideally, it should be strategic depth sufficiently rooted in historical realism that the best course of action for the player should mirror real (or alternate) history. What it actually achieves in practice is tons of micromanagement and busywork for the player as they ignore half the systems and abuse the other half to get the best in game rewards / progress in a way that is completely ahistorical.

    This is the problem with trying to emulate (recreate a complex system from the ground-up in order to make its top-level behaviour look like the real thing) rather than simulate (mimic the top-level behaviour of a complex system by using whatever simplified sub-systems work). Politics is far, far too complicated to emulate, so the attempts at doing so accurately invariably end up falling flat; and in the attempt the focus on fun, interesting game play gets left behind.

    This is as true for EU4 as it is for Stellaris, or even Surviving Mars. Surely I’m not the only one who wants big picture grand strategy in a historical setting; rather than shallow busywork in a deep, but failed, verisimilitude of history?

    1. The real problem is that you’re engaging with the systems using a power gamer play style rather than simply role-playing and dealing with the game state as it falls. All of the tedium from the multiple sub-systems only comes in if you have an anxious fear of missing an advantage. Playing without that anxiety, only engaging with some of the sub-systems at any given time, ignoring a mechanic for a while when it bores you; you’ll find you have an enjoyable storytelling engine at your fingertips even if you don’t rack up all the Achievements.

      1. The problem is, that implicitly or explicitly (in the form of achievements) Paradox deliberately makes losing Not Fun. The player is encouraged NOT to roleplay, but to pursue extremely aggressive goals and wide-ranging dominance over core systems.

        However, *even within your framework*, I seriously question your response. If all of these meters and buttons exist, why would I not interact with them? Paradox has probably charged me money for them! They literally are the game! Asserting that I should not, in service of some abstract value of role-playing, is illogical. They are the tools given, so it makes perfect sense that I, as the player, will use them.

      2. To some extent, yeah, that’s true. But engaging with the mechanics of a game is what makes a game a game rather than, say, a film or a book. This is especially true for a strategy game where, by definition, the fun comes from planning and then implementing a successful strategy. Paradox games are far better strategy games than narrative role playing games. That’s not to say that I’m a pure power gamer: I’ll role play to the extent that I’ll set myself goals beyond the score / victory condition of the game, based on which state I’m playing as, and even my mood. But within any “house rules” I set myself, I’ll try to play as best as I can. Incidentally that seems to be exactly what our host does in his various games, based on the walkthroughs he gives in these series. To put it another way: why would I spend money on expansion packs that add mechanics (or, just as valuably, spend my time understanding new mechanics added in a patch) to not engage with them? If I’m bored of doing that, it means that I’m bored of the game so I’ll simply stop playing it. If the devs didn’t intend us to interact with some new mechanics, so why did they add them, rather than polishing and improving the existing ones?

        Do you know what I do when I want a narrative experience that doesn’t involve me making decisions? I read a book, or watch a film / TV show – they’re going to have far better crafter narratives delivered in a way that has a much stronger emotional impact than anything Paradox could do.

  6. One thing that gestures at the Cursus Honorum, though it gets the order backwards, is the statesmamahip attribute, which impacts performance in offices and is accumulated in part by holding positions. Thus in theory you train people up for offices by giving them governorships or researcher positions. You could modify what it impacts and how it’s gained to encourage sending people through the cursus

  7. A Cornelius as Tribune of the Plebs — is that something important about the game, or just the random number generator throwing up an outlier?

    1. Tribune of the plebs is treated as an appointed office, so you’re encouragef to give it to great families.

  8. “Such a meteoric ascent was, in theory, impossible in the Roman system, where by custom no one could be elected to the consulship before the age of 42 (though Scipio Aemilianus does it at age 38, the precocious fellow))”
    I read that it was tied to Lex Villia Annalia, 180 BC.
    In the 40 years before, I read it claimed that the consuls ranged between 30 and 50, average 39. In 37 years after, they ranged from 43 (minimum age – and 30% were said to be exactly minimum age) to 55, with average 47 (some questionable math there, would need to see the source).
    And some later politicians got the popular assembly to override the legal minimum age.

  9. Having never played Imperator myself I am a bit surprised to learn of the absence of the cursus honorum, given that it was implemented in Paradox’s last attempt at a game set in the roman period. The rather unimaginatively named “Europa Universalis: Rome” where it worked like a somewhat further simplified version of what you propose here.

  10. There once was a mod for EU3 called Magna Mundi. In the late game, if you had a Parliament and you let them become too powerful they could break alliances and declare war on nearby nations without your permission.

    And it was blood glorious! Player Autocracy can go take a hike. The internal and the external should never be kept apart.

    1. There’s always a danger of the whole game turning into a random simulation the player gets to watch instead of actively shape, but I broadly agree that it’s always weird to see Paradox Grand Strategy games shy away from doing away with Player Autocracy. I mean, their selling point when compared to, say, Civ, comes from that lack of control, that break with the design ethos of “full control” that is normal for games.

      1. Who says that the selling point of Paradox games is lack of control?? In CK maybe, but I don’t see how anyone playing EU4 or Stellaris feels a lack of control. If anything you have too many knobs and levers to turn… Their selling point is that they’re grand strategy games emulating the geo-politics of a specific time and place.

        But I agree that there’s a difference between a strategy game and watching a simulation (or taking part in a simulation like in a character centric RPG). I mean, some people play Paradox games, or even Civ games, to exactly recreate world history beat for beat, but they’re the minority. Most people play for a combination of power fantasy and strategy: to formulate a plan and then implement it successfully. Realism is good only so far as it enhances the fantasy, and allows historical knowledge to inform what a good strategy might be. Lack of control seriously hampers both fantasy and strategy. Absolute control (including over rebellious subjects or even enemy states) would be just as bad; but a clear division between what you control and what you don’t is pretty much necessary for strategy. The same holds for what information you do/don’t know incidentally.

        As an analogy, I don’t think chess would be improved by having impetuous knights who randomly move even when you don’t want them to.

        1. It seems to me you’re disagreeing with me not about anything foundational, but only a positioning on a scale. As you say, there have to be elements outside of the player control for there to be meaningful success and failure. To which I say “Yes”. And you say you want a game in which historical strategies are a good guide to what strategies function, to which I say: “Yes. That requires taking away Player Autocracy”. Making the approach taken by historical actors the most rational requires the player to be constrained by similar forces as the historical actor was.

          The only difference appears to be that you’re dead set against these elements outside of player control being elements you consider internal threats. After all, you’re perfectly fine with not knowing whether Poland will declare war on you while you’re trying to conquer France. But how is not knowing whether your senate will declare war on Poland while you’re trying to conquer France actually conceptually different?

          1. Oh sure, it is a matter of sliding scale. But not being a dichotomy doesn’t make it less important.

            > And you say you want a game in which historical strategies are a good guide to what strategies function, to which I say: “Yes. That requires taking away Player Autocracy”. Making the approach taken by historical actors the most rational requires the player to be constrained by similar forces as the historical actor was.

            But that’s the thing, the player isn’t a historical actor. You’re not even roleplaying as a historical actor (except, possibly, in CK, but even then your a dynasty more than an individual). You’re playing as some kind of collective will of an entire polity, a sort of gestalt consciousness, far broader than any single historical actor. This is a completely ahistorical position to be in, sure, but not doing that would move the needle so far away from player autocracy that you’d essentially be watching a simulation that you can very slightly nudge one way or another rather than playing a game. I don’t think anyone wants that. So because the player isn’t a historical actor, there’s no historical precedence for the kind of forces that are constraining them.

            > After all, you’re perfectly fine with not knowing whether Poland will declare war on you while you’re trying to conquer France. But how is not knowing whether your senate will declare war on Poland while you’re trying to conquer France actually conceptually different?

            It depends on implementation. Not knowing whether Poland will declare war on me is about lack of information, specifically, lack of information about the intent of the player playing as Poland. This is the best sort of uncertainty, because it leads to a psychological mind game (against a human at least). I can also influence it: by making an alliance with Russia to threaten Poland, by keeping troops on my border, by waiting until Poland is weak to declare war on France, etc… Not knowing whether my Senate will declare war on Poland (or will let me declare war on France, Civ2 style) is different because, according to the implementations I’m familiar with, it’s random. That is, it’s not decided by some internal decision making which is based on information I only have partial access to and can influence, but a coin toss inside the game code. Such intrinsic randomness is a less satisfying source of uncertainty than lack of information because it’s essentially a dead end strategy wise – you can react to it, but it never reacts to you. It’s the difference between a hurdle that you can react using your agency as a player, and the end of that agency.

            Now if whether Poland declares war on me or not is completely random from the AI, then I would complain about it. Conversely, if you implemented “Senate declares war without your consent” in more depth such that it does become about incomplete-information-uncertainty rather than from intrinsic-randomness, then I would withdraw my objection. After all, that’s broadly how every grand strategy game approaches internal revolts. It might even be a good mechanic to base a game around. Whether Paradox games would be actually more fun to play by adding yet another complicated sub-system, and one that draws attention away from inter-polity relations (which is the focus of almost all of them), is another question. Despite what the endless expansion pack torrents of Paradox games would have you think, more mechanics and sub-systems is not always better. Simplicity, directness, and purity of vision are virtues in themselves.

      2. It wouldn’t be weird to you if you spent a lot of time on the Paradox and Steam fora and saw how the most pro-Player Autocracy players treated the company. Every gesture toward building a simulation at the expense of player control isn’t so much a case of the developers putting a “kick me” sign on their backs as it’s a case of putting up a “threaten to burn down my house” sign. The rest of us are lucky that anyone at Paradox has the patience left to put out games at all.

  11. Regarding implementing the Cursus Honorum as too separate from other polities, I feel like the mechanics sketched out could also work in improving the other democratic states. You would build up from a tripartite structure: There is the “popular assembly”, represented by the player. There are the magistrates, which are selected by the player, based on qualification criteria set by the game rules. And then there is the “upper house” assembly, representing the senate for Rome, and the boule/gerousia for Greek polis, which is made up of ex-magistrates, and which has the described blocking power over player actions they do not like. Just as for tribal governments, one could have the failure state of military magistrates refusing to put the army under player control if their opinion is too low.
    That way, the Cursus Honorum isn’t actually that “far out” from the other systems, it’s just more complicated qualification criteria for the magistrate positions. And the a-historic restriction of the boule to “people who held office before” feels to me less of a problem than this “The senate is just random guys” approach the game currently has.

  12. “tyranny – not the absolutely excellent game by Obsidian you all slept on and should now go play”

    Yes, I know!

    There’s just so many things to play…

  13. I was looking around the website but could not find any relevant information, but I was wondering, which version of the Polybius translation would you consider the best? In terms of both being a good translation but also have above average commentary value. Ideally also covering as much of the surviving text as possible?

  14. In fact, at Imperator‘s start date (304 BC), a substantial influx of new blood into Rome’s political elite stood within living memory, as the consulship had been opened to (rich) non-plebians only in 367 and the praetorship to them only in 337.

    The sense here has been inverted, right? This should say “plebians” or “non-patricians” rather than “non-plebians”, right?

  15. Tyranny increases AE decay because people (and polities) are not judged on a common standard but instead against expectations, but also because when the system you live in is more arbitrary you develop a shorter memory to cope; as is often the case Paradox abstracts these two effects into a single mechanic without giving any indication ow what part is what.

  16. “it shows a Roman voter in the act of voting (handing his vote to the assistant from where it will be placed in the basket (the cista) for counting.”

    Of course now I digress into wondering if our word “assistant” is related to “cista.” A quick web search doesn’t seem to support it, though. 8-({

  17. It actually is possible to represent the Roman Republic in far more detail and with far more authenticity in a strategy game. But in the specific case of the Paradox real time/tick based model that rushes through history quite fast, you are correct that you can’t do it. Not that they tried. Both Imperator and CK3 lack a meaningful social simulation.

    I do wonder how you feel about Historia Realis: Rome. It is more of a KoDP style game than a Paradox one. Although it is historical not fantasy and more complex than KoDP or the Six Ages games. But it focuses purely on Rome, has a, relatively, strong social simulation, and enormous flavor. You might want to look into it in case you decide to review it when it launches.

  18. I think it’s worth thinking about the “Covert Action rule”, “It’s better to have one good game than two great games.”

    If the gameplay of Imperator revolves around the struggle for geopolitical supremacy then the parts of domestic politics that will make for the best game will be the ones that closely tie back into that struggle. For instance consider the way that ways different political systems were expressed in numbers of armies:

    Monarchies: typically one powerful field army with the king, possibly at the capital if that is where the king is, other armies typically not comparable in strength. Losses in the royal army could be very politically dangerous but a very talented ruler (like Mithridates) could greatly mitigate that temporarily
    Non states: one army which might grow extremely large if the polity faces an existential crisis but where losses in the one army could end the very survival of the polity. Powerful leaders would both increase the ceiling for the army and increase the downside. Pretty much incapable of staying at peace but conflicts could be managed to be kept low level.
    Republics with many cities (Rome, Carthage): many independently operating armies which together could far exceed the logistical constraints in a given area. Extremely capable of shrugging off losses.
    Poleis: Capable of very impressive mobilizations even in the face of natural disasters (like Athens in the Peloponnesian war) and operating in multiple theaters but unlikely to have the manpower for many large commitments unless secondary theaters are mostly left to allies or navies. They are unlikely to collapse after defeats of the main army like Monarchies and non states but they are inclined to settle for negotiated peace after not very severe defeats.

    I’m sure someone more knowledgeable could come up with better categories and categorizations but these four categories would mean four very different play styles which could impact that path of honors in those different political systems. Domestic political gameplay could be tailored around these different power dynamics. For instance in Rome the politics are all about maximizing the upside. You have a huge supply of competent generals but that doesn’t do you much good unless you get yourself into conflicts in many different places. The more independent armies you have, the more your political system flourishes and keeps producing good armies. Concentrate things in fewer armies and you can get yourself a Hannibal but your talent pool might get thinner. And if your talent pool gets too thin you might start having the likes of Pompey and Caeser start to stand out too much. So all of this would create a very self reinforcing cycle, your domestic and foreign policy keep creating a feedback loop to keep pushing you the same way.

    Monarchies on the other hand should need to mitigate their limitations. They can make a powerful royal army but it’s hard to do stuff away from the royal army. Your central question is always where do you deploy the king at a moment, do I commit the king to this war? Do I keep the king at home reforming the finances (which requires keeping the royal army at the capital?) Monarchies shouldn’t deploy the royal army to unimportant conflicts so small states could survive next to large monarchies for many centuries with a very nominal amount of tribute. If the Selecuids invade Armenia that’s a life or death struggle that can take up 100% of the Armenian king’s time but the Selecuid king doesn’t want to spend more then a few months there before moving on. This could help create a dynamic like what happened with the successor kingdoms where they fought each other again and again and again for centuries while failing to gobble up the small kingdoms around them and letting the Partians slowly build up power and the Egyptian institutions become decrepit.

    All of this is very high level and vauge of course, I’m just trying to convey the idea that the question of how to make domestic politics accurate can’t be answered in isolation, it’s domestic politics as it relates to the core gameplay.

    1. For this, it’s probably worth noting how armies work in this game; every army has a commander (or misses out on a commander stat bonus *and* takes an additional penalty on top of that). Levies in non-tribes are always commanded by the governor of the region, with the faction leader always the governor of the capital. Legions are commanded by “legates” and “military tribunes”, with each legion having four slots to command it when split up* (governors command all stacks from their region). At the start of the game, your capital levy will be your largest single army, so you have the king commanding, but your capital legion is likely to displace it because it consumes capital levy capacity, you can weight the unit mix however you like, and it’s got substantial built-in combat bonuses. I feel like the ruler ought to command the capital legion too, at least for monarchies and Rome. You have to be way far into the game to have access to the law letting you raise legions from outside the capital.

      Tribes work differently; the heads of your families are clan chiefs, and the levy of each region is split between the chiefs. This can cause unexpected problems when you raise levies, because characters get a “powerbase” bonus from troops under their command and a loyalty penalty from the size of their powerbase.

      This ultimately produces an interacting strain between expansion and internal control; you need an increasing number of competent and loyal men to govern your territories and command your armies while keeping the family office counts satisfied. This is exacerbated by country rank coming with a civil war threshold penalty.

      Incidentally, their handling of the Parthians is event-based and kind of clumsy; when one of the nomadic tribes north of Parthia gets big enough, they sieze Parthia for free, automatically murder the Selucid ruler, and inflict stability and combat penalties on the Selucids, while declaring war with a special supercharged CB. Also, if the tribes are controlled by the AI, an event makes them unite at some point and they are just automatically better at basically everything, getting e.g. a 5% levy size bonus, a mechanic they share with AI Rome.

      *if you are not splitting your legion four ways, the extras are useful sinecures to stick useless or disloyal people in to fill up family office counts.

    2. > the question of how to make domestic politics accurate can’t be answered in isolation, it’s domestic politics as it relates to the core gameplay.

      I wish I could like this more than once. Accurate emulation of internal politics shouldn’t be the goal in-and-of-itself. It should be there to mechanically support the core gameplay, while being historically accurate enough for there to be a parallel between the strategies that worked in real history and those that work in-game, and to be immersive. The problem is that the latter is subjective. The more history you know, the harder it is for any inaccuracy to not break suspension of disbelief (the same is true in films and books too), ignorance is bliss as they say.

  19. The thought I’m repeatedly having is that the sequel to _Imperator_ shouldn’t be _Imperator II_, it should be _Alexandria_, with The Imperator Expansion as the first one post-release, covering Rome and Carthage.

  20. Two things:

    This is the first half of the third part of our three-part

    <3 <3 <3

    when we discuss the Fall of the Republic next week

    Ooh, this is a topic you haven’t blogged much about and I’m really excited to see this!

  21. I would like to say that I’m legitimately unsure how much of the oligarchic elements were just the result of Rome’s comparatively limited state capacity and communications technology (as opposed to being an active effort to disenfranchise like they would be in a modern democracy).

    1. The weighting of votes by property class was not a matter of limited state capacity – they could have equal weighting, and Athens did with way worse state capacity than Rome.

      1. True… but wasn’t Athens’s voting population way smaller, both in an absolute sense and in the sense that a smaller chunk of their population could theoretically vote at all? “Everyone gets an equal vote, and by ‘everyone’ I mean the rich male landowners that live in the city” feels a bit like cheating.

        To put it a different way, when OGH says something like “the comitia tributa involved voting in person and seems to have had a low voter turnout, which the Romans didn’t seem terribly interested in fixing”, I don’t have enough context to know how much they could’ve improved that if they had wanted to.

        1. “by ‘everyone’ I mean the rich male landowners that live in the city”

          That’s not how Athens worked. By the 300s if not 400s, participation potentially included _all_ the adult male citizens of Attica who weren’t in egregious debt to the city. In the 300s there was even payment for jury duty and attending the Assembly, so that the Assembly went from “try to round up 6000 people” to “round up ONLY 6000 people”. I assume the Council of 500 was also paid by then. And since juries and the Conuncil were selected by lot, everyone had an equal chance of being selected, if they put their name in.

          The total pool was I think 30-60,000 people, out of estimated 250,000? Probably still smaller than the non-proletariat Romans in absolute number, not sure about proportion.

          Athens was increasingly stingy with its citizenship, but increasingly creative in enabling all the citizens, even the poor ones, to participate. One idea is that this because of the importance of the navy: you didn’t need wealth to pull a trireme oar, and pulling oars was about as important as taking to the field as an armored hoplite.

          1. About the factor of “lived in the city”…
            I am not quite sure how effectively the Athenian citizens who lived far from the city participated (Marathon is by definition 42 km away, Laurium even further).
            In case of Rome, I recall deliberate moves to hinder pagans from participation: requiring that comitia should not fall on nundinae, so the pagans could not schedule to attend a popular assembly and also visit city market which they had to do anyway. How did Athens accommodate peasants visiting city for both popular assembly and shopping? (Of course, later on they were expressly paid to visit the city for assembly).
            Anyway, I recall that the Boule was expressly representative – the demes had representation tied to their size. (How were they sortitioned?)

    2. It’s unclear how much of it is backprojection, but the legendary/historical narrative of Rome definitely involves a whole lot of deliberate attempts to keep (or expand, it’s kinda unclear) oligarchic power.

  22. I wonder how much of the ideas you propose could be done by a mod. If so, that’d be a good way to see how fun/engaging/frustrating they are. If I didn’t have a too long list of things to work on in my spare time, I might try making it.

  23. “Player as people” is an interesting idea!

    All this reminded me of an old board game, I think titled “Republic of Rome”, where you played competing Senatorial families over generations. (So I guess you could think of yourself as the ‘genius’ of the gens.)

    The memorable thing was that if you all squabbled _too_ much, the republic could fall to barbarians and such. I’ve called it a semi-cooperative game: competitive, but with a constraint. The only other game I know of like that is _Save Dr. Lucky_, which had competitive “save an old man with a death wish” mixed in with the Titanic sinking, though I forget the details of the interaction.

    1. Semi-cooperative games are fairly popular these days, actually. A lot of these games either use a “traitor” mechanic, where one or several players secretly work towards an entirely different goal than the others, or every player has their own win condition but share a singular lose condition.

    2. Yeah RoR is semi-cooperative, with the emphasis on the ‘semi’ part as it was designed in the 80s so the state of the art for game design (especially coop or semi-coop designs) was not very advanced.

      Players were senatorial factions, with the various gentes forming part of the player’s factional card tableau (where they were subject to getting poached by other players). The core loop of play was the need to address various crises effectively (most notably external wars) which cropped up as a result of card draws from an event deck, without letting any one faction get sufficiently strong that they could elevate one of their senatorial cards to ‘first man’ of Rome.

      It was a pretty heavyweight, multi-player game so I only rarely got it to the table, but it was a fun if you like deep political games. The Early Republic event deck was pretty brutal so players had to work hard to avoid collectively losing the game but there was plenty of scope for chicanery and double-dealing.

  24. Not really related to this particular blogpost, but very relevant to the last couple of months of ACOUP content:
    https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/tinto-talks-26-21st-of-august-2024.1700025
    Apparently in EU5 (if “Project Caesar” is indeed EU5) Paradox will, for the first time, attempt to seriously model non-state entities.
    I’m very excited for that game. They’re bringing in a lot of their best systems and ideas from their previous games, and opening up A LOT of fundamental design decisions to community feedback.

  25. Rise of material inequality is probably the answer to the question of why the Roman Republic fell. Small farms could not compete with large latifundia, and citizens lost the wealth needed to serve in the army and with it their political power

  26. “The game also graphically represents each family under the character’s menu, showing their members, along with (left size) their powerbase”
    I’m assuming that’s meant to be “right side”

    “In 195, the senate split over the question of if the Lex Oppia, a sumptuary law restricting the display of wealth by Roman women passed during the Second Punic War to encourage those women to donate their riches to the war effort, should be repeated.”
    ->repealed

    “the consul, P. Sulpicius brought the matter to a vote and were blocked”
    ->was blocked

  27. > This is also something of an issue in Crusader Kings: your vassals can start wars, but a border vassal can’t, by beefing with the vassal of another king, drag you into a major war against your will, a thing which was actually a real hazard with vassalage based polities.

    They actually kinda can if you have an alliance with them and can’t afford the penalties from refusing a call to war, especially if you’re an empire with a king vassal who’s declaring a great war… (I had one of my border kings decide to invade a kingdom within the Holy Roman Empire. That was fun. I won and got a ton of new territory, but she ended up incredibly OP, double king = way more obnoxious than double duke.) Think Clan governments end up with more of this happening tbh, since alliances with vassals are way more emphasized and also they get more casus belli. And even having highest crown authority doesn’t help if they’ve got hooks on you.

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